Discussion:
The Julia Child bio and Latest Finish - Gone the Next
(too old to reply)
Nyssa
2017-02-22 22:44:56 UTC
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I finally finished "Dearie" the biography of Julia Child.

It was disappointing on several levels, including the lack
of included bibliography and notes. There was a note at
the back that the since the notes and bibliography listings
would have added approximately 70 pages to the book, the
publisher decided to leave them out! The author included
a URL to his personal website where the information can
be found.

This bothered me on several levels. First that a reputable
publisher (Knopf) would leave out this type of information
from a non-fiction book that was list price US$29.95 and
already clocking in at over 550 pages. The other is that
this supplemental material was not on the *publisher's*
website which one could assume would be maintained over
the coming years, but on a privately held domain and
website of the author's which may not be maintained a
few years down the road and doubtful to be there in a
decade or two when this book would still be floating
around even if only in the used book markets.

Has anyone else who reads non-fiction such as history
or biographies noticed if this is a coming trend?

I certainly hope not since it does not bode well for those
of us who actually read and use the notes and bibliography
on these sorts of books to pursue additional information
and tangential interests.

The author's writing style also drove be batty with his
over-use of slang terms such as "get-go" to the point it
would have made a good drinking game. There were problems
(IMO) with what he included and what was left out too.
No mention of the shark recipe! And her relationship with
Jacques Pepin wasn't even mentioned until the last two
chapters, and then it was slanted to make it seem as though
they didn't get along.

Jennet Conant's "Covert Affair" covered the OSS years of
Paul Child and Julia McWilliams much better.

So it was back to a mystery once "Dearie" was finished.

I picked up the first book in another series by Ben Rehder
of Blanco County fame. "Gone the Next" in the Roy Ballard
series follows an insurance fraud investigator who lurks
around waiting to capture claimants doing something they
shouldn't be able to on film.

This story centers around an apparently abducted little
girl who Roy thinks he sees at a house he's stalking for
the insurance company. The problem is, he can't convince
the police he really did see the girl because his daughter
was an abduction victim years ago and they think he's
projecting. Plus he's on probation from punching a former
boss in the nose for calling a female co-worker a rude
name.

Compared to the Blanco County series, this one comes
in a distant second. The main character is witty to the
point of being a smart mouth. It may be future books in
the series develop his character and the supporting cast
which would probably make things more interesting, but
even the mystery wasn't as complex and involved as those
in the Blanco series.

I'll give the next book in the series a try if I find it,
but if given the choice, I'd still go for the next in
Blanco over the next in the Roy Ballard series.

Maybe Mique can give "Gone the Next" a try and have a
different take on it.

Nyssa, whose TBR piles are still growing faster than she
can read them
Mike Burke
2017-02-23 05:38:38 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Nyssa
I finally finished "Dearie" the biography of Julia Child.
<Snipt>
Has anyone else who reads non-fiction such as history
or biographies noticed if this is a coming trend?
I certainly hope not since it does not bode well for those
of us who actually read and use the notes and bibliography
on these sorts of books to pursue additional information
and tangential interests.
The author's writing style also drove be batty with his
over-use of slang terms such as "get-go" to the point it
would have made a good drinking game. There were problems
(IMO) with what he included and what was left out too.
No mention of the shark recipe! And her relationship with
Jacques Pepin wasn't even mentioned until the last two
chapters, and then it was slanted to make it seem as though
they didn't get along.
Jennet Conant's "Covert Affair" covered the OSS years of
Paul Child and Julia McWilliams much better.
So it was back to a mystery once "Dearie" was finished.
I picked up the first book in another series by Ben Rehder
of Blanco County fame. "Gone the Next" in the Roy Ballard
series follows an insurance fraud investigator who lurks
around waiting to capture claimants doing something they
shouldn't be able to on film.
This story centers around an apparently abducted little
girl who Roy thinks he sees at a house he's stalking for
the insurance company. The problem is, he can't convince
the police he really did see the girl because his daughter
was an abduction victim years ago and they think he's
projecting. Plus he's on probation from punching a former
boss in the nose for calling a female co-worker a rude
name.
Compared to the Blanco County series, this one comes
in a distant second. The main character is witty to the
point of being a smart mouth. It may be future books in
the series develop his character and the supporting cast
which would probably make things more interesting, but
even the mystery wasn't as complex and involved as those
in the Blanco series.
I'll give the next book in the series a try if I find it,
but if given the choice, I'd still go for the next in
Blanco over the next in the Roy Ballard series.
Maybe Mique can give "Gone the Next" a try and have a
different take on it.
Nyssa, whose TBR piles are still growing faster than she
can read them
Will do, Nyssa.

Speaking of things that bug us, just finished reading a very informative
site on dangerous spiders. Fortunately, the information provided compared
well with other sources, so my immediate cringe at the writer's repetitive
use of 'bit' in lieu of 'bitten' did not entirely destroy his credibility
for me. But I almost stopped reading at the first instance. 'Beat' for
'beaten' is almost as lost a cause as the now nearly constant use of 'f***'
and other four-letter atrocities by people old enough to know better. In
this race to the bottom, we're almost there. Who wins, loses.
--
Mique
(Not entirely lily-white here, but enough's enough.)
Nyssa
2017-02-23 14:57:53 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Mike Burke
Post by Nyssa
I finally finished "Dearie" the biography of Julia Child.
<Snipt>
Has anyone else who reads non-fiction such as history
or biographies noticed if this is a coming trend?
I certainly hope not since it does not bode well for
those of us who actually read and use the notes and
bibliography on these sorts of books to pursue additional
information and tangential interests.
The author's writing style also drove be batty with his
over-use of slang terms such as "get-go" to the point it
would have made a good drinking game. There were problems
(IMO) with what he included and what was left out too.
No mention of the shark recipe! And her relationship with
Jacques Pepin wasn't even mentioned until the last two
chapters, and then it was slanted to make it seem as
though they didn't get along.
Jennet Conant's "Covert Affair" covered the OSS years of
Paul Child and Julia McWilliams much better.
So it was back to a mystery once "Dearie" was finished.
I picked up the first book in another series by Ben
Rehder of Blanco County fame. "Gone the Next" in the Roy
Ballard series follows an insurance fraud investigator
who lurks around waiting to capture claimants doing
something they shouldn't be able to on film.
This story centers around an apparently abducted little
girl who Roy thinks he sees at a house he's stalking for
the insurance company. The problem is, he can't convince
the police he really did see the girl because his
daughter was an abduction victim years ago and they think
he's projecting. Plus he's on probation from punching a
former boss in the nose for calling a female co-worker a
rude name.
Compared to the Blanco County series, this one comes
in a distant second. The main character is witty to the
point of being a smart mouth. It may be future books in
the series develop his character and the supporting cast
which would probably make things more interesting, but
even the mystery wasn't as complex and involved as those
in the Blanco series.
I'll give the next book in the series a try if I find it,
but if given the choice, I'd still go for the next in
Blanco over the next in the Roy Ballard series.
Maybe Mique can give "Gone the Next" a try and have a
different take on it.
Nyssa, whose TBR piles are still growing faster than she
can read them
Will do, Nyssa.
Speaking of things that bug us, just finished reading a
very informative
site on dangerous spiders. Fortunately, the information
provided compared well with other sources, so my immediate
cringe at the writer's repetitive use of 'bit' in lieu of
'bitten' did not entirely destroy his credibility
for me. But I almost stopped reading at the first
instance. 'Beat' for 'beaten' is almost as lost a cause
as the now nearly constant use of 'f***'
and other four-letter atrocities by people old enough to
know better. In
this race to the bottom, we're almost there. Who wins,
loses.
As far as poor grammar goes, I've noticed a big increase
in people who don't know how to properly use the past
perfect tense. I am *SO* tired of hearing "had went" and
similar match-ups of an auxiliary verb with a PAST TENSE
verb rather than the past participle.

It's coming from both American native English speakers
and Canadian ones. And it doesn't seem to be just poorly
educated working class types either. Radio broadcasters
with university educations regularly do the mis-matched
tense for just about every sentence in which they think
they're doing the past perfect.

It's terribly grating to my ears, and it's happening too
often and across too many demographics to simply be
that these people don't remember their grammar classes
from elementary, high school, and college.

I have similar reactions to the use of the word "busted"
when on-air TV reporters (and others who should know better
in print or professionally) talk of a "busted pipe" or
"busted window" and other places where "broken" would be
the correct choice.

Yes, there is a race to the bottom, and we who have
higher standards are being trampled by those in the race.

Nyssa, who has heard non-native English speakers do a better
job with "our" own language than many native speakers do
these days (especially Swedes and Finns)
Mike Burke
2017-02-23 22:52:35 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Nyssa
<Snipt>
As far as poor grammar goes, I've noticed a big increase
in people who don't know how to properly use the past
perfect tense. I am *SO* tired of hearing "had went" and
similar match-ups of an auxiliary verb with a PAST TENSE
verb rather than the past participle.
It's coming from both American native English speakers
and Canadian ones. And it doesn't seem to be just poorly
educated working class types either. Radio broadcasters
with university educations regularly do the mis-matched
tense for just about every sentence in which they think
they're doing the past perfect.
It's terribly grating to my ears, and it's happening too
often and across too many demographics to simply be
that these people don't remember their grammar classes
from elementary, high school, and college.
I have similar reactions to the use of the word "busted"
when on-air TV reporters (and others who should know better
in print or professionally) talk of a "busted pipe" or
"busted window" and other places where "broken" would be
the correct choice.
And even when they try to use 'broken', they say 'broke'.
Post by Nyssa
Yes, there is a race to the bottom, and we who have
higher standards are being trampled by those in the race.
Nyssa, who has heard non-native English speakers do a better
job with "our" own language than many native speakers do
these days (especially Swedes and Finns)
Yes, we have several Swedish friends (our son and D-I-L employed a number
of young Swedish women as au pairs when their children were young) and
their English is impeccable. So also the Dutch.

Another grammatical atrocity that annoys me intensely is the abuse of
'would have' as in 'If he would have passed the ball they would have
scored'. Of course, even that has been corrupted to 'would of'. And
another, 'He earned more money than what he earned last year'. Ick!

I've started reading that Rehder book. Too early too comment yet.

Hope the weather there is not being too unkind.
--
Mique
Nyssa
2017-02-24 16:32:50 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Mike Burke
Post by Nyssa
<Snipt>
As far as poor grammar goes, I've noticed a big increase
in people who don't know how to properly use the past
perfect tense. I am *SO* tired of hearing "had went" and
similar match-ups of an auxiliary verb with a PAST TENSE
verb rather than the past participle.
It's coming from both American native English speakers
and Canadian ones. And it doesn't seem to be just poorly
educated working class types either. Radio broadcasters
with university educations regularly do the mis-matched
tense for just about every sentence in which they think
they're doing the past perfect.
It's terribly grating to my ears, and it's happening too
often and across too many demographics to simply be
that these people don't remember their grammar classes
from elementary, high school, and college.
I have similar reactions to the use of the word "busted"
when on-air TV reporters (and others who should know
better in print or professionally) talk of a "busted
pipe" or "busted window" and other places where "broken"
would be the correct choice.
And even when they try to use 'broken', they say 'broke'.
Post by Nyssa
Yes, there is a race to the bottom, and we who have
higher standards are being trampled by those in the race.
Nyssa, who has heard non-native English speakers do a
better job with "our" own language than many native
speakers do these days (especially Swedes and Finns)
Yes, we have several Swedish friends (our son and D-I-L
employed a number of young Swedish women as au pairs when
their children were young) and
their English is impeccable. So also the Dutch.
Another grammatical atrocity that annoys me intensely is
the abuse of 'would have' as in 'If he would have passed
the ball they would have
scored'. Of course, even that has been corrupted to 'would
of'. And
another, 'He earned more money than what he earned last
year'. Ick!
I've started reading that Rehder book. Too early too
comment yet.
Hope the weather there is not being too unkind.
The weather here has been very kind yesterday and today.
Sunny, but breezy, with temperatures in the 70sF/20sC.
I intend to get outside and enjoy it later today.
It won't last though, so it's still too early to start
planting the garden.

Meanwhile I noticed that I had a split infinitive in
my previous post. Oh, the horrors! Posting on the fly
doesn't work well for proofreading.

As long as we're ranting on grammar horrors, one of
my big ones that I'm seeing and hearing more often
wrong than right is the use of "and" when the correct
usage would call for "to" as in "try and see" instead
of the correct "try to see" and other similar pairings.

I'll be interested in your comment on the Rehder book.
Unless one of the others in the series comes up free
on the Kindle, I'll be putting my book money towards
getting the rest of the Blanco County series.

Nyssa, who only has so much book money available and
even less space for more TBR piles
Mike Burke
2017-02-26 03:14:45 UTC
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On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 09:57:53 -0500, Nyssa <***@flawlesslogic.com>
wrote:

<snipt>
Post by Nyssa
I picked up the first book in another series by Ben
Rehder of Blanco County fame. "Gone the Next" in the Roy
Ballard series follows an insurance fraud investigator
who lurks around waiting to capture claimants doing
something they shouldn't be able to on film.
This story centers around an apparently abducted little
girl who Roy thinks he sees at a house he's stalking for
the insurance company. The problem is, he can't convince
the police he really did see the girl because his
daughter was an abduction victim years ago and they think
he's projecting. Plus he's on probation from punching a
former boss in the nose for calling a female co-worker a
rude name.
Compared to the Blanco County series, this one comes
in a distant second. The main character is witty to the
point of being a smart mouth. It may be future books in
the series develop his character and the supporting cast
which would probably make things more interesting, but
even the mystery wasn't as complex and involved as those
in the Blanco series.
I'll give the next book in the series a try if I find it,
but if given the choice, I'd still go for the next in
Blanco over the next in the Roy Ballard series.
Maybe Mique can give "Gone the Next" a try and have a
different take on it.
Finished it, Nyssa, and I basically agree with everything you say. I,
too, find smart-mouth first person characters a dreadful bore. I also
don't like protagonists who take stupid risks. This latter habit
totally killed my enjoyment of Kathy Reich's Bones books which I
stopped reading altogether very early on in the series. It was that
among other things that caused me to drop Patsy Cornwall's books.

We didn't find the full story about his own abduction experience way
too late in the book which was also full of irrelevant trivia that
didn't seem to add much to the story.

It's not even close to the Blanco County quality. I'll give him
another chance, but just the one.

Mique

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Nyssa
2017-02-26 16:22:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mike Burke
On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 09:57:53 -0500, Nyssa
<snipt>
Post by Nyssa
I picked up the first book in another series by Ben
Rehder of Blanco County fame. "Gone the Next" in the
Roy Ballard series follows an insurance fraud
investigator who lurks around waiting to capture
claimants doing something they shouldn't be able to on
film.
This story centers around an apparently abducted little
girl who Roy thinks he sees at a house he's stalking
for the insurance company. The problem is, he can't
convince the police he really did see the girl because
his daughter was an abduction victim years ago and they
think he's projecting. Plus he's on probation from
punching a former boss in the nose for calling a female
co-worker a rude name.
Compared to the Blanco County series, this one comes
in a distant second. The main character is witty to the
point of being a smart mouth. It may be future books in
the series develop his character and the supporting
cast which would probably make things more interesting,
but even the mystery wasn't as complex and involved as
those in the Blanco series.
I'll give the next book in the series a try if I find
it, but if given the choice, I'd still go for the next
in Blanco over the next in the Roy Ballard series.
Maybe Mique can give "Gone the Next" a try and have a
different take on it.
Finished it, Nyssa, and I basically agree with everything
you say. I,
too, find smart-mouth first person characters a dreadful
bore. I also
don't like protagonists who take stupid risks. This
latter habit totally killed my enjoyment of Kathy Reich's
Bones books which I
stopped reading altogether very early on in the series.
It was that among other things that caused me to drop
Patsy Cornwall's books.
We didn't find the full story about his own abduction
experience way too late in the book which was also full of
irrelevant trivia that didn't seem to add much to the
story.
It's not even close to the Blanco County quality. I'll
give him another chance, but just the one.
Mique
We're on the same wavelength about this one, Mique.

I started to get suspicious about the dual abduction
stories running parallel about two-thirds into the
book. Turned out I was right. The facts simply didn't
mesh, so it would have to be two different cases.

What surprised me was the fact that this book was
written (or at least published) *after* the first bunch
of Blanco County books and after "The Driving Lesson,"
a non-mystery that I enjoyed. This was listed as
Rehder's ninth book, but it reads more like an early
effort than a polished mystery.

Unless "Gone the Next" was written before the Blancos,
say an early attempt at mystery writing and shelved,
it's surprising that this one would show so little
sparkle that is in the Blancos and "The Driving Lesson."

I noticed that there are several more in the Roy Ballard
series now, which surprises me since the Blanco series
has more or less come to a stop at #10. I hope Rehder
hasn't abandoned Blanco in favor of spending all of
his time on Ballard. They simply don't compare in
quality.

I still need to buy and read Blancos #7-10, but since
they're in trade paperback instead of hardback, the
used prices are out of line once shipping costs are
added in. It's actually less expensive to buy them
new. But then for the full price of those four books,
I could purchase about four times the number of used
books from other series. Decisions, decisions.

Currently I'm reading the last book in the "Best Laid
Plans" series (#5), and not enjoying it much. It's
a what-if based around EMP and terrorist attacks that
sends the US into chaos. This last one has the bad
guys (three groups of 'em) invading, and the brave
townsmen and remaining military fighting them off in
Utah. Most of this book has been taken up with
descriptions of battles which bore me silly. (It's
why I don't like military history.) I'm 2/3rds finished,
so I can find out who wins, who stays alive, and the
like, but I'll be glad when it's over.

The first few books were good, entertaining, and more
centered around a few families. I think the author
simply wanted to stretch out the series into an
extra book or two, so we get military action instead
of character interaction.

Hopefully, I can finish this one tonight and start on
#3 in the Knitting Mystery series. It will be a relief
after all the shooting and explosions.

Nyssa, who has enough TBRs not to need any new ones,
but it's like chocolate...can you ever have enough?
Carol Dickinson
2017-03-02 21:48:10 UTC
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Raw Message
Oh good a message I can read and reply to.

I agree with all of the above

AND as far as broadcasters go

broadcasters
Post by Nyssa
with university educations regularly
all that and more. I hate the new words / phrases
they have invented that seem to have popped up suddenly
with no explanation of where they came from.

The one that grates on me the most is "ramp up".
Post by Nyssa
Yes, there is a race to the bottom, and we who have
higher standards are being trampled by those in the race.
Nyssa, who has heard non-native English speakers do a better
job with "our" own language than many native speakers do
p***@gmail.com
2017-03-06 08:13:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Nyssa
Post by Mike Burke
Post by Nyssa
I finally finished "Dearie" the biography of Julia Child.
<Snipt>
Has anyone else who reads non-fiction such as history
or biographies noticed if this is a coming trend?
I certainly hope not since it does not bode well for
those of us who actually read and use the notes and
bibliography on these sorts of books to pursue additional
information and tangential interests.
The author's writing style also drove be batty with his
over-use of slang terms such as "get-go" to the point it
would have made a good drinking game. There were problems
(IMO) with what he included and what was left out too.
No mention of the shark recipe! And her relationship with
Jacques Pepin wasn't even mentioned until the last two
chapters, and then it was slanted to make it seem as
though they didn't get along.
Jennet Conant's "Covert Affair" covered the OSS years of
Paul Child and Julia McWilliams much better.
So it was back to a mystery once "Dearie" was finished.
I picked up the first book in another series by Ben
Rehder of Blanco County fame. "Gone the Next" in the Roy
Ballard series follows an insurance fraud investigator
who lurks around waiting to capture claimants doing
something they shouldn't be able to on film.
This story centers around an apparently abducted little
girl who Roy thinks he sees at a house he's stalking for
the insurance company. The problem is, he can't convince
the police he really did see the girl because his
daughter was an abduction victim years ago and they think
he's projecting. Plus he's on probation from punching a
former boss in the nose for calling a female co-worker a
rude name.
Compared to the Blanco County series, this one comes
in a distant second. The main character is witty to the
point of being a smart mouth. It may be future books in
the series develop his character and the supporting cast
which would probably make things more interesting, but
even the mystery wasn't as complex and involved as those
in the Blanco series.
I'll give the next book in the series a try if I find it,
but if given the choice, I'd still go for the next in
Blanco over the next in the Roy Ballard series.
Maybe Mique can give "Gone the Next" a try and have a
different take on it.
Nyssa, whose TBR piles are still growing faster than she
can read them
Will do, Nyssa.
Speaking of things that bug us, just finished reading a
very informative
site on dangerous spiders. Fortunately, the information
provided compared well with other sources, so my immediate
cringe at the writer's repetitive use of 'bit' in lieu of
'bitten' did not entirely destroy his credibility
for me. But I almost stopped reading at the first
instance. 'Beat' for 'beaten' is almost as lost a cause
as the now nearly constant use of 'f***'
and other four-letter atrocities by people old enough to
know better. In
this race to the bottom, we're almost there. Who wins,
loses.
As far as poor grammar goes, I've noticed a big increase
in people who don't know how to properly use the past
perfect tense. I am *SO* tired of hearing "had went" and
similar match-ups of an auxiliary verb with a PAST TENSE
verb rather than the past participle.
It's coming from both American native English speakers
and Canadian ones. And it doesn't seem to be just poorly
educated working class types either. Radio broadcasters
with university educations regularly do the mis-matched
tense for just about every sentence in which they think
they're doing the past perfect.
It's terribly grating to my ears, and it's happening too
often and across too many demographics to simply be
that these people don't remember their grammar classes
from elementary, high school, and college.
I have similar reactions to the use of the word "busted"
when on-air TV reporters (and others who should know better
in print or professionally) talk of a "busted pipe" or
"busted window" and other places where "broken" would be
the correct choice.
Yes, there is a race to the bottom, and we who have
higher standards are being trampled by those in the race.
Nyssa, who has heard non-native English speakers do a better
job with "our" own language than many native speakers do
these days (especially Swedes and Finns)
My grasp of grammar somewhat decreased after 35 years as a technical writer/editor because a certain level of vernacular made the written language smoother/easier to read and understand. We did not accept extraneous words such as "go and do" and such like language because it's idiotic and useless and adds too many words to a tech manual---keep them short, accurate and a fast read. We did try to use as much correct grammar as possible because that, too, read smoother/easier. From what I've seen/received these, even that is in the garbage can!

I absolutely agree about the books of all types published these days. I don't think that a copywriter these days even knows about the "The Chicago Manual of Style" much less uses it. It is not, however, a North American problem. I've read a fair number of Brit books lately that aren't true to language, in particularly a mystery series recommended some time back, author being Elly Griffiths. Among other things, the punctuation is seriously lacking. I don't like the old, over-punctuating, but this is lacking.

AND, that's another thing! The absolutely misuse of hyphenating from all publishers from all the English-language books. It's so extremely important in tech pubs, that it drives me insane in regular publications.

I'll be better tomorrow.

Pam J

P.S. I haven't allowed a red pen/pencil in my house since I retired.
Francis A. Miniter
2017-03-06 22:54:01 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by Mike Burke
Post by Nyssa
I finally finished "Dearie" the biography of Julia Child.
<Snipt>
Has anyone else who reads non-fiction such as history or
biographies noticed if this is a coming trend?
I certainly hope not since it does not bode well for those of
us who actually read and use the notes and bibliography on
these sorts of books to pursue additional information and
tangential interests.
The author's writing style also drove be batty with his
over-use of slang terms such as "get-go" to the point it would
have made a good drinking game. There were problems (IMO) with
what he included and what was left out too. No mention of the
shark recipe! And her relationship with Jacques Pepin wasn't
even mentioned until the last two chapters, and then it was
slanted to make it seem as though they didn't get along.
Jennet Conant's "Covert Affair" covered the OSS years of Paul
Child and Julia McWilliams much better.
So it was back to a mystery once "Dearie" was finished.
I picked up the first book in another series by Ben Rehder of
Blanco County fame. "Gone the Next" in the Roy Ballard series
follows an insurance fraud investigator who lurks around
waiting to capture claimants doing something they shouldn't be
able to on film.
This story centers around an apparently abducted little girl
who Roy thinks he sees at a house he's stalking for the
insurance company. The problem is, he can't convince the police
he really did see the girl because his daughter was an
abduction victim years ago and they think he's projecting. Plus
he's on probation from punching a former boss in the nose for
calling a female co-worker a rude name.
Compared to the Blanco County series, this one comes in a
distant second. The main character is witty to the point of
being a smart mouth. It may be future books in the series
develop his character and the supporting cast which would
probably make things more interesting, but even the mystery
wasn't as complex and involved as those in the Blanco series.
I'll give the next book in the series a try if I find it, but
if given the choice, I'd still go for the next in Blanco over
the next in the Roy Ballard series.
Maybe Mique can give "Gone the Next" a try and have a different
take on it.
Nyssa, whose TBR piles are still growing faster than she can
read them
Will do, Nyssa.
Speaking of things that bug us, just finished reading a very
informative site on dangerous spiders. Fortunately, the
information provided compared well with other sources, so my
immediate cringe at the writer's repetitive use of 'bit' in lieu
of 'bitten' did not entirely destroy his credibility for me. But
I almost stopped reading at the first instance. 'Beat' for
'beaten' is almost as lost a cause as the now nearly constant use
of 'f***' and other four-letter atrocities by people old enough
to know better. In this race to the bottom, we're almost there.
Who wins, loses.
As far as poor grammar goes, I've noticed a big increase in people
who don't know how to properly use the past perfect tense. I am
*SO* tired of hearing "had went" and similar match-ups of an
auxiliary verb with a PAST TENSE verb rather than the past
participle.
It's coming from both American native English speakers and Canadian
ones. And it doesn't seem to be just poorly educated working class
types either. Radio broadcasters with university educations
regularly do the mis-matched tense for just about every sentence in
which they think they're doing the past perfect.
It's terribly grating to my ears, and it's happening too often and
across too many demographics to simply be that these people don't
remember their grammar classes from elementary, high school, and
college.
I have similar reactions to the use of the word "busted" when
on-air TV reporters (and others who should know better in print or
professionally) talk of a "busted pipe" or "busted window" and
other places where "broken" would be the correct choice.
Yes, there is a race to the bottom, and we who have higher
standards are being trampled by those in the race.
Nyssa, who has heard non-native English speakers do a better job
with "our" own language than many native speakers do these days
(especially Swedes and Finns)
My grasp of grammar somewhat decreased after 35 years as a technical
writer/editor because a certain level of vernacular made the written
language smoother/easier to read and understand. We did not accept
extraneous words such as "go and do" and such like language because
it's idiotic and useless and adds too many words to a tech
manual---keep them short, accurate and a fast read. We did try to
use as much correct grammar as possible because that, too, read
smoother/easier. From what I've seen/received these, even that is in
the garbage can!
I absolutely agree about the books of all types published these days.
I don't think that a copywriter these days even knows about the "The
Chicago Manual of Style" much less uses it. It is not, however, a
North American problem. I've read a fair number of Brit books lately
that aren't true to language, in particularly a mystery series
recommended some time back, author being Elly Griffiths. Among other
things, the punctuation is seriously lacking. I don't like the old,
over-punctuating, but this is lacking.
AND, that's another thing! The absolutely misuse of hyphenating from
all publishers from all the English-language books. It's so
extremely important in tech pubs, that it drives me insane in regular
publications.
I'll be better tomorrow.
Pam J
P.S. I haven't allowed a red pen/pencil in my house since I retired.
I have given some thought to this of late. If I were to teach a class
on writing, I would want the students to learn that it is okay to use
bad grammar and bad spelling, but only if you are doing it purposely for
the sake of carrying forward your story or making a point. But to do it
deliberately, you have to know that you are doing that, and you cannot
know that if you do not know what good grammar and good spelling require.

My favorite American haiku is the following by Etheridge Knight:

Making jazz swing in
Seventeen syllables AIN’T
No square poet’s job.

Try reading that with an "isn't" in place of "ain't" and "a" in place of
"no" and it is flat and loses all of its force and meaning. With ain't
and no he takes us away from the "square poet" into the world of the hip
poet. And his haiku swings.


Francis A. Miniter
Mike Burke
2017-03-07 03:09:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Francis A. Miniter
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by Mike Burke
Post by Nyssa
I finally finished "Dearie" the biography of Julia Child.
<Snipt>
Has anyone else who reads non-fiction such as history or
biographies noticed if this is a coming trend?
I certainly hope not since it does not bode well for those of
us who actually read and use the notes and bibliography on
these sorts of books to pursue additional information and
tangential interests.
The author's writing style also drove be batty with his
over-use of slang terms such as "get-go" to the point it would
have made a good drinking game. There were problems (IMO) with
what he included and what was left out too. No mention of the
shark recipe! And her relationship with Jacques Pepin wasn't
even mentioned until the last two chapters, and then it was
slanted to make it seem as though they didn't get along.
Jennet Conant's "Covert Affair" covered the OSS years of Paul
Child and Julia McWilliams much better.
So it was back to a mystery once "Dearie" was finished.
I picked up the first book in another series by Ben Rehder of
Blanco County fame. "Gone the Next" in the Roy Ballard series
follows an insurance fraud investigator who lurks around
waiting to capture claimants doing something they shouldn't be
able to on film.
This story centers around an apparently abducted little girl
who Roy thinks he sees at a house he's stalking for the
insurance company. The problem is, he can't convince the police
he really did see the girl because his daughter was an
abduction victim years ago and they think he's projecting. Plus
he's on probation from punching a former boss in the nose for
calling a female co-worker a rude name.
Compared to the Blanco County series, this one comes in a
distant second. The main character is witty to the point of
being a smart mouth. It may be future books in the series
develop his character and the supporting cast which would
probably make things more interesting, but even the mystery
wasn't as complex and involved as those in the Blanco series.
I'll give the next book in the series a try if I find it, but
if given the choice, I'd still go for the next in Blanco over
the next in the Roy Ballard series.
Maybe Mique can give "Gone the Next" a try and have a different
take on it.
Nyssa, whose TBR piles are still growing faster than she can
read them
Will do, Nyssa.
Speaking of things that bug us, just finished reading a very
informative site on dangerous spiders. Fortunately, the
information provided compared well with other sources, so my
immediate cringe at the writer's repetitive use of 'bit' in lieu
of 'bitten' did not entirely destroy his credibility for me. But
I almost stopped reading at the first instance. 'Beat' for
'beaten' is almost as lost a cause as the now nearly constant use
of 'f***' and other four-letter atrocities by people old enough
to know better. In this race to the bottom, we're almost there.
Who wins, loses.
As far as poor grammar goes, I've noticed a big increase in people
who don't know how to properly use the past perfect tense. I am
*SO* tired of hearing "had went" and similar match-ups of an
auxiliary verb with a PAST TENSE verb rather than the past
participle.
It's coming from both American native English speakers and Canadian
ones. And it doesn't seem to be just poorly educated working class
types either. Radio broadcasters with university educations
regularly do the mis-matched tense for just about every sentence in
which they think they're doing the past perfect.
It's terribly grating to my ears, and it's happening too often and
across too many demographics to simply be that these people don't
remember their grammar classes from elementary, high school, and
college.
I have similar reactions to the use of the word "busted" when
on-air TV reporters (and others who should know better in print or
professionally) talk of a "busted pipe" or "busted window" and
other places where "broken" would be the correct choice.
Yes, there is a race to the bottom, and we who have higher
standards are being trampled by those in the race.
Nyssa, who has heard non-native English speakers do a better job
with "our" own language than many native speakers do these days
(especially Swedes and Finns)
My grasp of grammar somewhat decreased after 35 years as a technical
writer/editor because a certain level of vernacular made the written
language smoother/easier to read and understand. We did not accept
extraneous words such as "go and do" and such like language because
it's idiotic and useless and adds too many words to a tech
manual---keep them short, accurate and a fast read. We did try to
use as much correct grammar as possible because that, too, read
smoother/easier. From what I've seen/received these, even that is in
the garbage can!
I absolutely agree about the books of all types published these days.
I don't think that a copywriter these days even knows about the "The
Chicago Manual of Style" much less uses it. It is not, however, a
North American problem. I've read a fair number of Brit books lately
that aren't true to language, in particularly a mystery series
recommended some time back, author being Elly Griffiths. Among other
things, the punctuation is seriously lacking. I don't like the old,
over-punctuating, but this is lacking.
AND, that's another thing! The absolutely misuse of hyphenating from
all publishers from all the English-language books. It's so
extremely important in tech pubs, that it drives me insane in regular
publications.
I'll be better tomorrow.
Pam J
P.S. I haven't allowed a red pen/pencil in my house since I retired.
I have given some thought to this of late. If I were to teach a class
on writing, I would want the students to learn that it is okay to use
bad grammar and bad spelling, but only if you are doing it purposely for
the sake of carrying forward your story or making a point. But to do it
deliberately, you have to know that you are doing that, and you cannot
know that if you do not know what good grammar and good spelling require.
Making jazz swing in
Seventeen syllables AIN’T
No square poet’s job.
Try reading that with an "isn't" in place of "ain't" and "a" in place of
"no" and it is flat and loses all of its force and meaning. With ain't
and no he takes us away from the "square poet" into the world of the hip
poet. And his haiku swings.
Francis A. Miniter
Francis, back in the day when I was studying law (early 60s), the practice,
at least in Australia, was for contracts and other formal documents like
wills to be written without any punctuation with a plethora of
HEREINAFTERs, AFOREMENTIONEDs and so on. The explanation was that
punctuation risked introducing ambiguities. I don't know whether this was
the case in the US, or even whether it's still the case here.

However, perhaps you will recall the famous American case some years ago
that turned on a misplaced comma in a contract between an electric
generation company and another company for the provision of the
distribution network infrastructure. As I recall, the term of the
agreement was for five years at a certain annual rate, with provision for a
review of the rate after one year. The distribution company interpreted
the contract as giving them the right not to renew after 12 months, while
the generator disagreed. Does that ring a bell? Millions of dollars were
involved.

Whatever the modern fashion in education might be, precise language is
important and, as you say, you need to know the rules before you try to
break them.
--
Mique
Nyssa
2017-03-07 14:55:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Francis A. Miniter
On Thursday, February 23, 2017 at 7:58:17 AM UTC-7, Nyssa
Post by Nyssa
Post by Mike Burke
Post by Nyssa
I finally finished "Dearie" the biography of Julia
Child.
<Snipt>
Has anyone else who reads non-fiction such as history
or biographies noticed if this is a coming trend?
I certainly hope not since it does not bode well for
those of us who actually read and use the notes and
bibliography on these sorts of books to pursue
additional information and tangential interests.
The author's writing style also drove be batty with
his over-use of slang terms such as "get-go" to the
point it would have made a good drinking game. There
were problems (IMO) with what he included and what was
left out too. No mention of the shark recipe! And her
relationship with Jacques Pepin wasn't even mentioned
until the last two chapters, and then it was slanted
to make it seem as though they didn't get along.
Jennet Conant's "Covert Affair" covered the OSS years
of Paul Child and Julia McWilliams much better.
So it was back to a mystery once "Dearie" was
finished.
I picked up the first book in another series by Ben
Rehder of Blanco County fame. "Gone the Next" in the
Roy Ballard series follows an insurance fraud
investigator who lurks around waiting to capture
claimants doing something they shouldn't be able to on
film.
This story centers around an apparently abducted
little girl who Roy thinks he sees at a house he's
stalking for the insurance company. The problem is, he
can't convince the police he really did see the girl
because his daughter was an abduction victim years ago
and they think he's projecting. Plus he's on probation
from punching a former boss in the nose for calling a
female co-worker a rude name.
Compared to the Blanco County series, this one comes
in a distant second. The main character is witty to
the point of being a smart mouth. It may be future
books in the series develop his character and the
supporting cast which would probably make things more
interesting, but even the mystery wasn't as complex
and involved as those in the Blanco series.
I'll give the next book in the series a try if I find
it, but if given the choice, I'd still go for the next
in Blanco over the next in the Roy Ballard series.
Maybe Mique can give "Gone the Next" a try and have a
different take on it.
Nyssa, whose TBR piles are still growing faster than
she can read them
Will do, Nyssa.
Speaking of things that bug us, just finished reading a
very
informative site on dangerous spiders. Fortunately,
the information provided compared well with other
sources, so my immediate cringe at the writer's
repetitive use of 'bit' in lieu
of 'bitten' did not entirely destroy his credibility
for me. But
I almost stopped reading at the first instance. 'Beat'
for 'beaten' is almost as lost a cause as the now
nearly constant use of 'f***' and other four-letter
atrocities by people old enough
to know better. In this race to the bottom, we're
almost there. Who wins, loses.
As far as poor grammar goes, I've noticed a big increase
in people who don't know how to properly use the past
perfect tense. I am *SO* tired of hearing "had went" and
similar match-ups of an auxiliary verb with a PAST TENSE
verb rather than the past participle.
It's coming from both American native English speakers
and Canadian ones. And it doesn't seem to be just poorly
educated working class types either. Radio broadcasters
with university educations regularly do the mis-matched
tense for just about every sentence in which they think
they're doing the past perfect.
It's terribly grating to my ears, and it's happening too
often and across too many demographics to simply be that
these people don't remember their grammar classes from
elementary, high school, and college.
I have similar reactions to the use of the word "busted"
when on-air TV reporters (and others who should know
better in print or professionally) talk of a "busted
pipe" or "busted window" and other places where "broken"
would be the correct choice.
Yes, there is a race to the bottom, and we who have
higher standards are being trampled by those in the
race.
Nyssa, who has heard non-native English speakers do a
better job with "our" own language than many native
speakers do these days (especially Swedes and Finns)
My grasp of grammar somewhat decreased after 35 years as
a technical writer/editor because a certain level of
vernacular made the written
language smoother/easier to read and understand. We did
not accept extraneous words such as "go and do" and such
like language because it's idiotic and useless and adds
too many words to a tech
manual---keep them short, accurate and a fast read. We
did try to use as much correct grammar as possible
because that, too, read
smoother/easier. From what I've seen/received these,
even that is in the garbage can!
I absolutely agree about the books of all types published
these days. I don't think that a copywriter these days
even knows about the "The
Chicago Manual of Style" much less uses it. It is not,
however, a
North American problem. I've read a fair number of Brit
books lately that aren't true to language, in
particularly a mystery series
recommended some time back, author being Elly Griffiths.
Among other
things, the punctuation is seriously lacking. I don't
like the old, over-punctuating, but this is lacking.
AND, that's another thing! The absolutely misuse of
hyphenating from
all publishers from all the English-language books. It's
so extremely important in tech pubs, that it drives me
insane in regular publications.
I'll be better tomorrow.
Pam J
P.S. I haven't allowed a red pen/pencil in my house
since I retired.
I have given some thought to this of late. If I were to
teach a class on writing, I would want the students to
learn that it is okay to use bad grammar and bad spelling,
but only if you are doing it purposely for
the sake of carrying forward your story or making a point.
But to do it deliberately, you have to know that you are
doing that, and you cannot know that if you do not know
what good grammar and good spelling require.
My favorite American haiku is the following by Etheridge
Making jazz swing in
Seventeen syllables AIN?T
No square poet?s job.
Try reading that with an "isn't" in place of "ain't" and
"a" in place of
"no" and it is flat and loses all of its force and
meaning. With ain't and no he takes us away from the
"square poet" into the world of the hip
poet. And his haiku swings.
Francis A. Miniter
I agree that there is a place in creative writing for the
use of non-standard English in the forms of slang, vernacular,
and dialect. I also agree that the author of such needs to
understand why it's non-standard and where it is considered
acceptable.

But when we're dealing with journalists, newscasters, NON-
fiction authors, speech writers, business people, and others
who are trying to communicate information clearly and
precisely, the non-standard is not appropriate. Those
that are using it more than likely don't even KNOW it's
non-standard or incorrect much less understand the underlying
proper rules of grammar and usage.

How we got to this point is worth investigation and remedy,
but it doesn't look like that has much chance of happening
considering how far it reaches, obviously as far as secondary,
college, and university education instruction. Or lack
thereof.

Another problem with all of this incorrect grammar (I'll
toss in punctuation too since so many people seem to
think a plural is formed by adding "'s" to nouns) is
that the more people (and especially children) see and
hear these mistakes they believe them to be correct usage
and validates and reinforces their own incorrect usage.

How long before those of us who do use correct grammar
become the minority and must bow to the incorrect becoming
what's accepted?

I realize language is always evolving, but it seems to
be doing so at warp speed these days more through lack
of knowledge or lack of care (few copy editors, for example)
from those who might just know better such as executives
at publishing houses, newspaper editors, or others who
supervising writers or broadcasters who should care about
precise communications.

I used to teach a college course in business communications
decades ago, and even with those students, I don't remember
them making so many basic errors in grammar usage. With that
group, it was more refining their organization of thoughts
when writing reports and such, not having to teach basics
they should have gotten in high school.

Nyssa, who wonders what is going on in classrooms lately
when grammar is supposed to be taught
Francis A. Miniter
2017-03-07 15:10:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Nyssa
Post by Francis A. Miniter
On Thursday, February 23, 2017 at 7:58:17 AM UTC-7, Nyssa
Post by Nyssa
Post by Mike Burke
Post by Nyssa
I finally finished "Dearie" the biography of Julia
Child.
<Snipt>
Has anyone else who reads non-fiction such as history
or biographies noticed if this is a coming trend?
I certainly hope not since it does not bode well for
those of us who actually read and use the notes and
bibliography on these sorts of books to pursue
additional information and tangential interests.
The author's writing style also drove be batty with
his over-use of slang terms such as "get-go" to the
point it would have made a good drinking game. There
were problems (IMO) with what he included and what was
left out too. No mention of the shark recipe! And her
relationship with Jacques Pepin wasn't even mentioned
until the last two chapters, and then it was slanted
to make it seem as though they didn't get along.
Jennet Conant's "Covert Affair" covered the OSS years
of Paul Child and Julia McWilliams much better.
So it was back to a mystery once "Dearie" was
finished.
I picked up the first book in another series by Ben
Rehder of Blanco County fame. "Gone the Next" in the
Roy Ballard series follows an insurance fraud
investigator who lurks around waiting to capture
claimants doing something they shouldn't be able to on
film.
This story centers around an apparently abducted
little girl who Roy thinks he sees at a house he's
stalking for the insurance company. The problem is, he
can't convince the police he really did see the girl
because his daughter was an abduction victim years ago
and they think he's projecting. Plus he's on probation
from punching a former boss in the nose for calling a
female co-worker a rude name.
Compared to the Blanco County series, this one comes
in a distant second. The main character is witty to
the point of being a smart mouth. It may be future
books in the series develop his character and the
supporting cast which would probably make things more
interesting, but even the mystery wasn't as complex
and involved as those in the Blanco series.
I'll give the next book in the series a try if I find
it, but if given the choice, I'd still go for the next
in Blanco over the next in the Roy Ballard series.
Maybe Mique can give "Gone the Next" a try and have a
different take on it.
Nyssa, whose TBR piles are still growing faster than
she can read them
Will do, Nyssa.
Speaking of things that bug us, just finished reading a
very
informative site on dangerous spiders. Fortunately,
the information provided compared well with other
sources, so my immediate cringe at the writer's
repetitive use of 'bit' in lieu
of 'bitten' did not entirely destroy his credibility
for me. But
I almost stopped reading at the first instance. 'Beat'
for 'beaten' is almost as lost a cause as the now
nearly constant use of 'f***' and other four-letter
atrocities by people old enough
to know better. In this race to the bottom, we're
almost there. Who wins, loses.
As far as poor grammar goes, I've noticed a big increase
in people who don't know how to properly use the past
perfect tense. I am *SO* tired of hearing "had went" and
similar match-ups of an auxiliary verb with a PAST TENSE
verb rather than the past participle.
It's coming from both American native English speakers
and Canadian ones. And it doesn't seem to be just poorly
educated working class types either. Radio broadcasters
with university educations regularly do the mis-matched
tense for just about every sentence in which they think
they're doing the past perfect.
It's terribly grating to my ears, and it's happening too
often and across too many demographics to simply be that
these people don't remember their grammar classes from
elementary, high school, and college.
I have similar reactions to the use of the word "busted"
when on-air TV reporters (and others who should know
better in print or professionally) talk of a "busted
pipe" or "busted window" and other places where "broken"
would be the correct choice.
Yes, there is a race to the bottom, and we who have
higher standards are being trampled by those in the
race.
Nyssa, who has heard non-native English speakers do a
better job with "our" own language than many native
speakers do these days (especially Swedes and Finns)
My grasp of grammar somewhat decreased after 35 years as
a technical writer/editor because a certain level of
vernacular made the written
language smoother/easier to read and understand. We did
not accept extraneous words such as "go and do" and such
like language because it's idiotic and useless and adds
too many words to a tech
manual---keep them short, accurate and a fast read. We
did try to use as much correct grammar as possible
because that, too, read
smoother/easier. From what I've seen/received these,
even that is in the garbage can!
I absolutely agree about the books of all types published
these days. I don't think that a copywriter these days
even knows about the "The
Chicago Manual of Style" much less uses it. It is not,
however, a
North American problem. I've read a fair number of Brit
books lately that aren't true to language, in
particularly a mystery series
recommended some time back, author being Elly Griffiths.
Among other
things, the punctuation is seriously lacking. I don't
like the old, over-punctuating, but this is lacking.
AND, that's another thing! The absolutely misuse of
hyphenating from
all publishers from all the English-language books. It's
so extremely important in tech pubs, that it drives me
insane in regular publications.
I'll be better tomorrow.
Pam J
P.S. I haven't allowed a red pen/pencil in my house
since I retired.
I have given some thought to this of late. If I were to
teach a class on writing, I would want the students to
learn that it is okay to use bad grammar and bad spelling,
but only if you are doing it purposely for
the sake of carrying forward your story or making a point.
But to do it deliberately, you have to know that you are
doing that, and you cannot know that if you do not know
what good grammar and good spelling require.
My favorite American haiku is the following by Etheridge
Making jazz swing in
Seventeen syllables AIN?T
No square poet?s job.
Try reading that with an "isn't" in place of "ain't" and
"a" in place of
"no" and it is flat and loses all of its force and
meaning. With ain't and no he takes us away from the
"square poet" into the world of the hip
poet. And his haiku swings.
Francis A. Miniter
I agree that there is a place in creative writing for the
use of non-standard English in the forms of slang, vernacular,
and dialect. I also agree that the author of such needs to
understand why it's non-standard and where it is considered
acceptable.
But when we're dealing with journalists, newscasters, NON-
fiction authors, speech writers, business people, and others
who are trying to communicate information clearly and
precisely, the non-standard is not appropriate. Those
that are using it more than likely don't even KNOW it's
non-standard or incorrect much less understand the underlying
proper rules of grammar and usage.
How we got to this point is worth investigation and remedy,
but it doesn't look like that has much chance of happening
considering how far it reaches, obviously as far as secondary,
college, and university education instruction. Or lack
thereof.
Another problem with all of this incorrect grammar (I'll
toss in punctuation too since so many people seem to
think a plural is formed by adding "'s" to nouns) is
that the more people (and especially children) see and
hear these mistakes they believe them to be correct usage
and validates and reinforces their own incorrect usage.
How long before those of us who do use correct grammar
become the minority and must bow to the incorrect becoming
what's accepted?
I realize language is always evolving, but it seems to
be doing so at warp speed these days more through lack
of knowledge or lack of care (few copy editors, for example)
from those who might just know better such as executives
at publishing houses, newspaper editors, or others who
supervising writers or broadcasters who should care about
precise communications.
I used to teach a college course in business communications
decades ago, and even with those students, I don't remember
them making so many basic errors in grammar usage. With that
group, it was more refining their organization of thoughts
when writing reports and such, not having to teach basics
they should have gotten in high school.
Nyssa, who wonders what is going on in classrooms lately
when grammar is supposed to be taught
Example of horrible headlines from today's Hartford Courant:

"Proposal Would Set Legal Age To Marry At 18"


Francis A. Miniter
Nyssa
2017-03-07 16:26:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Francis A. Miniter wrote:

<lots of snippage from the original thread topic which
is now drifting far away>
Post by Francis A. Miniter
Post by Nyssa
I agree that there is a place in creative writing for the
use of non-standard English in the forms of slang,
vernacular, and dialect. I also agree that the author of
such needs to understand why it's non-standard and where
it is considered acceptable.
But when we're dealing with journalists, newscasters,
NON- fiction authors, speech writers, business people,
and others who are trying to communicate information
clearly and precisely, the non-standard is not
appropriate. Those that are using it more than likely
don't even KNOW it's non-standard or incorrect much less
understand the underlying proper rules of grammar and
usage.
How we got to this point is worth investigation and
remedy, but it doesn't look like that has much chance of
happening considering how far it reaches, obviously as
far as secondary, college, and university education
instruction. Or lack thereof.
Another problem with all of this incorrect grammar (I'll
toss in punctuation too since so many people seem to
think a plural is formed by adding "'s" to nouns) is
that the more people (and especially children) see and
hear these mistakes they believe them to be correct usage
and validates and reinforces their own incorrect usage.
How long before those of us who do use correct grammar
become the minority and must bow to the incorrect
becoming what's accepted?
I realize language is always evolving, but it seems to
be doing so at warp speed these days more through lack
of knowledge or lack of care (few copy editors, for
example) from those who might just know better such as
executives at publishing houses, newspaper editors, or
others who supervising writers or broadcasters who should
care about precise communications.
I used to teach a college course in business
communications decades ago, and even with those students,
I don't remember them making so many basic errors in
grammar usage. With that group, it was more refining
their organization of thoughts when writing reports and
such, not having to teach basics they should have gotten
in high school.
Nyssa, who wonders what is going on in classrooms lately
when grammar is supposed to be taught
Example of horrible headlines from today's Hartford
"Proposal Would Set Legal Age To Marry At 18"
Francis A. Miniter
No doubt you can blame that travesty on someone's
word processor. There is usually an option to
"capitalize all words" for a title format which few
realize or care does NOT conform to proper standards
of capitalization.

Again, it was in elementary school grammar classes
where one learned that prepositions (when not the
first word in a title) are not capitalized.

Unfortunately too many people are trusting their poorly
designed and programmed word processors to know better
than they do and go with the flow, so to speak.

Of course, the computer ALWAYS knows better. Except
when it doesn't. Mostly because the dweebs who programmed
the thing don't know the rules either. Ditto for the people
who wrote the functional specifications for the program.

Nyssa, who has dealt with both clueless programmers and
even more clueless functional spec writers during her
career
p***@gmail.com
2017-03-08 09:05:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Nyssa
<lots of snippage from the original thread topic which
is now drifting far away>
Post by Francis A. Miniter
Post by Nyssa
I agree that there is a place in creative writing for the
use of non-standard English in the forms of slang,
vernacular, and dialect. I also agree that the author of
such needs to understand why it's non-standard and where
it is considered acceptable.
But when we're dealing with journalists, newscasters,
NON- fiction authors, speech writers, business people,
and others who are trying to communicate information
clearly and precisely, the non-standard is not
appropriate. Those that are using it more than likely
don't even KNOW it's non-standard or incorrect much less
understand the underlying proper rules of grammar and
usage.
How we got to this point is worth investigation and
remedy, but it doesn't look like that has much chance of
happening considering how far it reaches, obviously as
far as secondary, college, and university education
instruction. Or lack thereof.
Another problem with all of this incorrect grammar (I'll
toss in punctuation too since so many people seem to
think a plural is formed by adding "'s" to nouns) is
that the more people (and especially children) see and
hear these mistakes they believe them to be correct usage
and validates and reinforces their own incorrect usage.
How long before those of us who do use correct grammar
become the minority and must bow to the incorrect
becoming what's accepted?
I realize language is always evolving, but it seems to
be doing so at warp speed these days more through lack
of knowledge or lack of care (few copy editors, for
example) from those who might just know better such as
executives at publishing houses, newspaper editors, or
others who supervising writers or broadcasters who should
care about precise communications.
I used to teach a college course in business
communications decades ago, and even with those students,
I don't remember them making so many basic errors in
grammar usage. With that group, it was more refining
their organization of thoughts when writing reports and
such, not having to teach basics they should have gotten
in high school.
Nyssa, who wonders what is going on in classrooms lately
when grammar is supposed to be taught
Example of horrible headlines from today's Hartford
"Proposal Would Set Legal Age To Marry At 18"
Francis A. Miniter
No doubt you can blame that travesty on someone's
word processor. There is usually an option to
"capitalize all words" for a title format which few
realize or care does NOT conform to proper standards
of capitalization.
Again, it was in elementary school grammar classes
where one learned that prepositions (when not the
first word in a title) are not capitalized.
Unfortunately too many people are trusting their poorly
designed and programmed word processors to know better
than they do and go with the flow, so to speak.
Of course, the computer ALWAYS knows better. Except
when it doesn't. Mostly because the dweebs who programmed
the thing don't know the rules either. Ditto for the people
who wrote the functional specifications for the program.
Nyssa, who has dealt with both clueless programmers and
even more clueless functional spec writers during her
career
Just why you haven't written novels/books, Nyssa? I'm just asking because I read your very, extremely, long reviews of all these books, to novella length. Another problem I have is that I search for these books you review and I can't find them, even in e-books.

I can't find them. I have tried. Do you have some special library that no one can see?

The rest of you out there, can you tell me you have read these books and review book she talks about?

I truly read what she writes but, personally, I think it's a an automotive/automatatic/electro piece of crap.

Really, I'd like to ask all of you just how books you really found and read and reviewed, even in e-book? Just how many of them?

PamJ
Nyssa
2017-03-08 23:55:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 9:26:58 AM UTC-7, Nyssa
Post by Nyssa
<lots of snippage from the original thread topic which
is now drifting far away>
Post by Francis A. Miniter
Post by Nyssa
I agree that there is a place in creative writing for
the use of non-standard English in the forms of slang,
vernacular, and dialect. I also agree that the author
of such needs to understand why it's non-standard and
where it is considered acceptable.
But when we're dealing with journalists, newscasters,
NON- fiction authors, speech writers, business people,
and others who are trying to communicate information
clearly and precisely, the non-standard is not
appropriate. Those that are using it more than likely
don't even KNOW it's non-standard or incorrect much
less understand the underlying proper rules of grammar
and usage.
How we got to this point is worth investigation and
remedy, but it doesn't look like that has much chance
of happening considering how far it reaches, obviously
as far as secondary, college, and university education
instruction. Or lack thereof.
Another problem with all of this incorrect grammar
(I'll toss in punctuation too since so many people
seem to think a plural is formed by adding "'s" to
nouns) is that the more people (and especially
children) see and hear these mistakes they believe
them to be correct usage and validates and reinforces
their own incorrect usage.
How long before those of us who do use correct grammar
become the minority and must bow to the incorrect
becoming what's accepted?
I realize language is always evolving, but it seems to
be doing so at warp speed these days more through lack
of knowledge or lack of care (few copy editors, for
example) from those who might just know better such as
executives at publishing houses, newspaper editors, or
others who supervising writers or broadcasters who
should care about precise communications.
I used to teach a college course in business
communications decades ago, and even with those
students, I don't remember them making so many basic
errors in grammar usage. With that group, it was more
refining their organization of thoughts when writing
reports and such, not having to teach basics they
should have gotten in high school.
Nyssa, who wonders what is going on in classrooms
lately when grammar is supposed to be taught
Example of horrible headlines from today's Hartford
"Proposal Would Set Legal Age To Marry At 18"
Francis A. Miniter
No doubt you can blame that travesty on someone's
word processor. There is usually an option to
"capitalize all words" for a title format which few
realize or care does NOT conform to proper standards
of capitalization.
Again, it was in elementary school grammar classes
where one learned that prepositions (when not the
first word in a title) are not capitalized.
Unfortunately too many people are trusting their poorly
designed and programmed word processors to know better
than they do and go with the flow, so to speak.
Of course, the computer ALWAYS knows better. Except
when it doesn't. Mostly because the dweebs who programmed
the thing don't know the rules either. Ditto for the
people who wrote the functional specifications for the
program.
Nyssa, who has dealt with both clueless programmers and
even more clueless functional spec writers during her
career
Just why you haven't written novels/books, Nyssa? I'm
just asking because I read your very, extremely, long
reviews of all these books, to novella length. Another
problem I have is that I search for these books you review
and I can't find them, even in e-books.
I can't find them. I have tried. Do you have some
special library that no one can see?
The rest of you out there, can you tell me you have read
these books and review book she talks about?
I truly read what she writes but, personally, I think it's
a an automotive/automatatic/electro piece of crap.
Really, I'd like to ask all of you just how books you
really found and read and reviewed, even in e-book? Just
how many of them?
PamJ
I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but if if you're
trying to find reviews I have written, go to amazon.com
and do a search for my profile. I use "Nyssa" there too
and my email address on this posting is the same as I use
on amazon.com.

Or you can go to amazon and plug in the title of a book
and check to see if I've posted a review on that book,
just be sure to click "See All Reviews" just in case
I reviewed one that I didn't purchase on amazon since
they're now giving placement priority to books/products
they've given an "Amazon Verified Purchase" badge, which
doesn't always mean that the item wasn't purchased
through amazon, but that's a gripe for another time.

I've posted 467 reviews on amazon, most of them are for
books, both the Kindle and the hard copy kind.

Yes, I sometimes get long-winded in my reviews and my
postings. There are more than enough "Great read!" or
"This book sucks" types of book reviews out there, so
I'm swimming against the tide, but I think the longer
reviews are more meaningful and helpful to readers/
consumers.

And please explain what you mean by "an automotive
/automatatic/electro piece of crap" and to what you
are referring in that comment.

Nyssa, who is confused and hopes that someone will
explain what she's missed
Carol Dickinson
2017-03-09 04:28:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Nyssa
Yes, I sometimes get long-winded in my reviews and my
postings. There are more than enough "Great read!" or
"This book sucks" types of book reviews out there, so
I'm swimming against the tide, but I think the longer
reviews are more meaningful and helpful to readers/
consumers.
Well I don't think that's a bad thing. I used to review
books on BooksnBytes but I don't anymore for a couple of
reasons. But I too wanted to say something with a little
more meat in it, a little different perspective. Because
a lot of the review's that I trusted to choose a book
turned out to be misleading.

I attended a book review panel at Left Coast Crime 2001
here in Anchorage and the biggest thing I got out of it,
was review your own way, in your own style. Don't try
to fit in some other persons's box.

Carol
Nyssa
2017-03-09 14:56:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Carol Dickinson
Post by Nyssa
Yes, I sometimes get long-winded in my reviews and my
postings. There are more than enough "Great read!" or
"This book sucks" types of book reviews out there, so
I'm swimming against the tide, but I think the longer
reviews are more meaningful and helpful to readers/
consumers.
Well I don't think that's a bad thing. I used to review
books on BooksnBytes but I don't anymore for a couple of
reasons. But I too wanted to say something with a little
more meat in it, a little different perspective. Because
a lot of the review's that I trusted to choose a book
turned out to be misleading.
I attended a book review panel at Left Coast Crime 2001
here in Anchorage and the biggest thing I got out of it,
was review your own way, in your own style. Don't try
to fit in some other persons's box.
Carol
That's good advice, Carol. That's what I've been doing
all along.

Back in my corporate days, I would use the style expected
for the project be it a proposal submission or technical
document. When I'm not getting paid for it, I'll do it
MY way.

No one has to read 'em if they don't like 'em. Same goes
with long-winded posts or those that get that way because
the discussion goes on through several peoples' additions
or thread drift. That's Usenet, and that's why I prefer
it over other types of fora that are overly structured,
moderated, and usually difficult to follow when limited
to dialup connection speeds. All that web fluff bogs
things down compared to good old, plain text Usenet posts.

Nyssa, who is currently reading "Riptide" the second book
in the Florida Panhandle Mystery series
Carol Dickinson
2017-03-09 04:21:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Nyssa
Of course, the computer ALWAYS knows better. Except
when it doesn't. Mostly because the dweebs who programmed
the thing don't know the rules either. Ditto for the people
who wrote the functional specifications for the program.
Yes, I had to give up and get a new computer with Windows 10
in November. Despite, was it Mike's? promise I would be OK with
windows 10 it is horrid. I've now been screaming at it for 3
months and have not been able to start rebuilding my book because
I cannot overwhelm the automatic writing software. It wants me
to substitute words that are not what I mean, add punctuation
that doesn't work with national standards for genealogy formats,
indents where I don't want, and will not, where it is necessary.

We are way too dependent on software programs to do things our
brains should be doing. God forbid we actually convert to
driverless cars.
Carol Dickinson
2017-03-09 04:14:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Nyssa
How long before those of us who do use correct grammar
become the minority and must bow to the incorrect becoming
what's accepted?
Too late. We're there.
Post by Nyssa
Nyssa, who wonders what is going on in classrooms lately
when grammar is supposed to be taught
Back in the '80's my son had a black teacher who spoke ebonics. Now we live NOWHERE NEAR anyplace that is a common language. We live in the Beverly Hills of Alaska, the Anchorage hillside. She had not a single black student in the class, although she had Asians, Native Americans etc. I didn't even fight the language pollution because of other insufficiencies in her teaching skills. But she's still there! So for 30 years, she's been not teaching correctly in one of the best elementary schools in Alaska. How can we expect good product from the schools if we don't put qualified people in front of the class.

I at least solved my own issue. I was denied a request to transfer him to another class. So we enrolled him in the Catholic school down the street. He was bounced out in one day. Probably a record for Catholic schools anywhere. So we re-enrolled him in the original school. BUT he couldn't be put back with the ebonics speaking teacher because of school district rules for enrolling new students. So we got the other teacher we had requested anyway. I made sure my sister knew about her and she didn't allow her kids in that teacher's class either.
Nancy Spera
2017-02-24 15:18:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Nyssa
I finally finished "Dearie" the biography of Julia Child.
It was disappointing on several levels, including the lack
of included bibliography and notes. There was a note at
the back that the since the notes and bibliography listings
would have added approximately 70 pages to the book, the
publisher decided to leave them out! The author included
a URL to his personal website where the information can
be found.
This bothered me on several levels. First that a reputable
publisher (Knopf) would leave out this type of information
from a non-fiction book that was list price US$29.95 and
already clocking in at over 550 pages. The other is that
this supplemental material was not on the *publisher's*
website which one could assume would be maintained over
the coming years, but on a privately held domain and
website of the author's which may not be maintained a
few years down the road and doubtful to be there in a
decade or two when this book would still be floating
around even if only in the used book markets.
Has anyone else who reads non-fiction such as history
or biographies noticed if this is a coming trend?
I certainly hope not since it does not bode well for those
of us who actually read and use the notes and bibliography
on these sorts of books to pursue additional information
and tangential interests.
The author's writing style also drove be batty with his
over-use of slang terms such as "get-go" to the point it
would have made a good drinking game. There were problems
(IMO) with what he included and what was left out too.
No mention of the shark recipe! And her relationship with
Jacques Pepin wasn't even mentioned until the last two
chapters, and then it was slanted to make it seem as though
they didn't get along.
Jennet Conant's "Covert Affair" covered the OSS years of
Paul Child and Julia McWilliams much better.
Nyssa, whose TBR piles are still growing faster than she
can read them
Nyssa, have you read Julia's own "My Life in France" co-written
with her nephew? I realize it doesn't cover any of her OSS days
but I found it interesting. Also, although she's not mentioned
much her brother-in-law's book, "Roots in the Rock" by Charles Child,
does have some fascinating items about his family as they built a
cottage on the Maine coast. It's the cottage she and Paul would
retreat to on occasion. It's only available as a used book.

Nancy
Nyssa
2017-02-24 16:43:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Nancy Spera
Post by Nyssa
I finally finished "Dearie" the biography of Julia Child.
It was disappointing on several levels, including the
lack of included bibliography and notes. There was a note
at the back that the since the notes and bibliography
listings would have added approximately 70 pages to the
book, the publisher decided to leave them out! The author
included a URL to his personal website where the
information can be found.
This bothered me on several levels. First that a
reputable publisher (Knopf) would leave out this type of
information from a non-fiction book that was list price
US$29.95 and already clocking in at over 550 pages. The
other is that this supplemental material was not on the
*publisher's* website which one could assume would be
maintained over the coming years, but on a privately held
domain and website of the author's which may not be
maintained a few years down the road and doubtful to be
there in a decade or two when this book would still be
floating around even if only in the used book markets.
Has anyone else who reads non-fiction such as history
or biographies noticed if this is a coming trend?
I certainly hope not since it does not bode well for
those of us who actually read and use the notes and
bibliography on these sorts of books to pursue additional
information and tangential interests.
The author's writing style also drove be batty with his
over-use of slang terms such as "get-go" to the point it
would have made a good drinking game. There were problems
(IMO) with what he included and what was left out too.
No mention of the shark recipe! And her relationship with
Jacques Pepin wasn't even mentioned until the last two
chapters, and then it was slanted to make it seem as
though they didn't get along.
Jennet Conant's "Covert Affair" covered the OSS years of
Paul Child and Julia McWilliams much better.
Nyssa, whose TBR piles are still growing faster than she
can read them
Nyssa, have you read Julia's own "My Life in France"
co-written
with her nephew? I realize it doesn't cover any of her
OSS days
but I found it interesting. Also, although she's not
mentioned much her brother-in-law's book, "Roots in the
Rock" by Charles Child, does have some fascinating items
about his family as they built a
cottage on the Maine coast. It's the cottage she and Paul
would
retreat to on occasion. It's only available as a used
book.
Nancy
No, I haven't read "My Life in France" but it was mentioned
in "Dearie" along with the Maine cottage, but not the book
by Charles Child.

This is where having the bibliography and notes *actually
being part of the published book* are important. If they
had been, finding related, topical references would be
a snap. Sure we can all fire up our computers and browsers
to go take a look at a URL, but is that going to be a
valid URL a decade or two from now? I doubt it.

Plus having to rely on a different medium for what should
be part of a serious book is a PITA and an imposition
on the reader who just paid for what they would assume
is a complete book.

As for the topic of Julia Child, I was really more interested
in the OSS years which were better covered in "Covert Affair."
I'm not a fan of French cooking. French baking, yes, but
not the overly fussy French techniques and ingredients, so
more details about the Cordon Bleu years and The French
Chef television show aren't of much interest to me. I did
enjoy the section on filming the first show though.

I'll also admit to owning two Julia Child cookbooks, but
both were from her last series featuring Jacques Pepin and
other cooks/bakers rather than a rehash of the French
stuff.

Currently reading a non-mystery and not enjoying it much.
Once that's done, I'll be reading #3 in the Knitting
Mystery series by Maggie Sefton and will report in then.

Nyssa, who is determined to get out and enjoy the sunshine
and warm weather this afternoon
b***@gmail.com
2017-04-27 13:56:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Nyssa
I finally finished "Dearie" the biography of Julia Child.
It was disappointing on several levels, including the lack
of
Post by Nyssa
included bibliography and notes. There was a note at
the
Post by Nyssa
back that the since the notes and bibliography listings
would
Post by Nyssa
have added approximately 70 pages to the book, the
publisher
Post by Nyssa
decided to leave them out! The author included
a
Post by Nyssa
URL to his personal website where the information can
be
Post by Nyssa
found.
This bothered me on several levels. First that a reputable
publisher
Post by Nyssa
(Knopf) would leave out this type of information
from
Post by Nyssa
a non-fiction book that was list price US$29.95 and
already
Post by Nyssa
clocking in at over 550 pages. The other is that
this
Post by Nyssa
supplemental material was not on the *publisher's*
website
Post by Nyssa
which one could assume would be maintained over
the
Post by Nyssa
coming years, but on a privately held domain and
website
Post by Nyssa
of the author's which may not be maintained a
few
Post by Nyssa
years down the road and doubtful to be there in a
decade
Post by Nyssa
or two when this book would still be floating
around
Post by Nyssa
even if only in the used book markets.
Has anyone else who reads non-fiction such as history
or
Post by Nyssa
biographies noticed if this is a coming trend?
I've noticed that; how non-fiction authors sometimes exclude or make it more difficult to find additional information in addition to what they've published. I sometimes wonder where they should draw the line.
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