Copy editors

[p***@gmail.com]

A short while back tonight, I posted because I felt that others were pointing fingers at North American writers/publishers/etc and, basically saying we were at fault for all the trashy language being sent out to the world. (Part of Nyssa's review on a Julia Child bio.)

I would like you all to consider the fact that many young people venturing into the world these days have a problem opening bank accounts and using credit cards because they can't even write a cursive signature? Consider that fact that they've used stupid Microsoft (possibly, others) for spelling, grammar, research and whatever else for all their so-called writing?

So, reader's, could that possibly be the reason that we're seeing so much terrible language, ridiculous mistakes (I've more than a few added by a copy editor) and other garbage?

That said, how do we set up a revolution against publishers using these people who aren't anywhere close to be educated enough to be copy editors? We aren't just talking about North America now, it's also UK, Ireland, Australia and New Zealand.

So asks Pam J

BTW, the writers are just as bad. It's up to copy editors to clean it up, and they can't.

[Nyssa]

Post by p***@gmail.com
A short while back tonight, I posted because I felt that
others were pointing fingers at North American
writers/publishers/etc and, basically saying we were at
fault for all the trashy language being sent out to the
world. (Part of Nyssa's review on a Julia Child bio.)
I would like you all to consider the fact that many young
people venturing into the world these days have a problem
opening bank accounts and using credit cards because they
can't even write a cursive signature? Consider that fact
that they've used stupid Microsoft (possibly, others) for
spelling, grammar, research and whatever else for all
their so-called writing?
So, reader's, could that possibly be the reason that we're
seeing so much terrible language, ridiculous mistakes
(I've more than a few added by a copy editor) and other
garbage?
That said, how do we set up a revolution against
publishers using these people who aren't anywhere close to
be educated enough to be copy editors? We aren't just
talking about North America now, it's also UK, Ireland,
Australia and New Zealand.
So asks Pam J
BTW, the writers are just as bad. It's up to copy editors
to clean it up, and they can't.

I know I'm hearing/reading bad grammar out of Canadian
sources as well as US ones, so it certainly isn't limited
to one country.

As for the youngsters being the main problem, I can't
pin it all on them. I'm reading/hearing it from all
age groups, from the twenty-somethings all the way up
into sixty-somethings. University graduates or high school
only, it doesn't seem to make much of a difference overall.

I know from personal experience that schools did not stop
teaching the proper use of apostrophes and past participles
going back to the 1950s. How all of these native speakers
got into the bad habits of using "had" with the past tense
form of a verb instead of the past participle is beyond me.
Or professional writers and broadcasters who don't understand
the proper pronoun to use as the object of a preposition.

My neighbor does the past tense instead of participle thing
on a regular basis. She's in her late 60s and spent
decades as a clerk/secretary in the civil service.
Yet she's told me several times her supervisors' writing
had to be corrected often because *they* didn't know proper
spelling and grammar. I'm wondering who corrected hers
or if everything just went out with multiple errors.

As for Microsoft, it wasn't just them. I remember my
favorite word processing program of all time, Ami Pro,
(originally by a company called Samna, later purchased
by Lotus, then ended up being owned by IBM who rewrote
it and ruined the features that made it work so well)
had a plug-in for grammar checking. I stopped using it
after the first couple of tries since it tended to add
mistakes to my writing rather than correcting them. It
went nuts about the passive case and nagged the user to
change it to active all the time. It wasn't smart enough
to realize that passive is often the correct choice when
describing actions that you observe rather than initiate.

Is it because the *teachers* don't know grammar themselves,
so can't/won't teach it? From observations, I've noticed
some schools don't grade papers or projects on grammar
and spelling unless they're specifically for an English
class. You'd think reinforcing proper skills in all work
would be the best way to make certain the lessons from
English class were actually learned and put into practice.

Obviously being able to communicate and express yourself
correctly in your own native language is no longer
valued in today's society or schools.

Nyssa, who got her first job because her writing and
editing skills were top notch

[Mike Burke]

Post by Nyssa

Post by p***@gmail.com
A short while back tonight, I posted because I felt that
others were pointing fingers at North American
writers/publishers/etc and, basically saying we were at
fault for all the trashy language being sent out to the
world. (Part of Nyssa's review on a Julia Child bio.)
I would like you all to consider the fact that many young
people venturing into the world these days have a problem
opening bank accounts and using credit cards because they
can't even write a cursive signature? Consider that fact
that they've used stupid Microsoft (possibly, others) for
spelling, grammar, research and whatever else for all
their so-called writing?
So, reader's, could that possibly be the reason that we're
seeing so much terrible language, ridiculous mistakes
(I've more than a few added by a copy editor) and other
garbage?
That said, how do we set up a revolution against
publishers using these people who aren't anywhere close to
be educated enough to be copy editors? We aren't just
talking about North America now, it's also UK, Ireland,
Australia and New Zealand.
So asks Pam J
BTW, the writers are just as bad. It's up to copy editors
to clean it up, and they can't.

I know I'm hearing/reading bad grammar out of Canadian
sources as well as US ones, so it certainly isn't limited
to one country.
As for the youngsters being the main problem, I can't
pin it all on them. I'm reading/hearing it from all
age groups, from the twenty-somethings all the way up
into sixty-somethings. University graduates or high school
only, it doesn't seem to make much of a difference overall.
I know from personal experience that schools did not stop
teaching the proper use of apostrophes and past participles
going back to the 1950s. How all of these native speakers
got into the bad habits of using "had" with the past tense
form of a verb instead of the past participle is beyond me.
Or professional writers and broadcasters who don't understand
the proper pronoun to use as the object of a preposition.
My neighbor does the past tense instead of participle thing
on a regular basis. She's in her late 60s and spent
decades as a clerk/secretary in the civil service.
Yet she's told me several times her supervisors' writing
had to be corrected often because *they* didn't know proper
spelling and grammar. I'm wondering who corrected hers
or if everything just went out with multiple errors.
As for Microsoft, it wasn't just them. I remember my
favorite word processing program of all time, Ami Pro,
(originally by a company called Samna, later purchased
it and ruined the features that made it work so well)
had a plug-in for grammar checking. I stopped using it
after the first couple of tries since it tended to add
mistakes to my writing rather than correcting them. It
went nuts about the passive case and nagged the user to
change it to active all the time. It wasn't smart enough
to realize that passive is often the correct choice when
describing actions that you observe rather than initiate.
Is it because the *teachers* don't know grammar themselves,
so can't/won't teach it? From observations, I've noticed
some schools don't grade papers or projects on grammar
and spelling unless they're specifically for an English
class. You'd think reinforcing proper skills in all work
would be the best way to make certain the lessons from
English class were actually learned and put into practice.
Obviously being able to communicate and express yourself
correctly in your own native language is no longer
valued in today's society or schools.
Nyssa, who got her first job because her writing and
editing skills were top notch

Writing for generals is a good way to have one's mind focussed on correct
grammar. There are two main arguments against sloppy writing, particularly
in public places such as the Internet: self-respect and respect for one's
readers.

[Mike Burke]

Post by p***@gmail.com
A short while back tonight, I posted because I felt that others were
pointing fingers at North American writers/publishers/etc and, basically
saying we were at fault for all the trashy language being sent out to the
world. (Part of Nyssa's review on a Julia Child bio.)
I would like you all to consider the fact that many young people
venturing into the world these days have a problem opening bank accounts
and using credit cards because they can't even write a cursive signature?
Consider that fact that they've used stupid Microsoft (possibly, others)
for spelling, grammar, research and whatever else for all their so-called writing?
So, reader's, could that possibly be the reason that we're seeing so much
terrible language, ridiculous mistakes (I've more than a few added by a
copy editor) and other garbage?
That said, how do we set up a revolution against publishers using these
people who aren't anywhere close to be educated enough to be copy
editors? We aren't just talking about North America now, it's also UK,
Ireland, Australia and New Zealand.
So asks Pam J
BTW, the writers are just as bad. It's up to copy editors to clean it up, and they can't.

Speaking of copy editing, Pam, see your third paragraph, second word.
Oops! :-)

[Carol Dickinson]

sks Pam J

Post by p***@gmail.com
BTW, the writers are just as bad. It's up to copy editors to clean it up, and they can't.

I once had a conversation with a "writer", a young dodohead, who aspired to write as a career. I pointed out that they needed to learn good grammar, since we were discussing a document that person had created which was incomprehensible. It was a workplace document. The ditso, replied that they didn't need to now how to spell, use proper punctuation and grammar because "the editors do that." That was a couple decades ago, so we have generations of persons who don't know and don't care that they don't know. Texting doesn't help either.

[Nancy2]

Yes, Carol, teachers started correcting and grading papers based on substantive content
and essentially told students not to worry about grammar and punctuation because it was
the ideas they were trying to express that were most important.

As I recall, these changes came along with the "new math." (I read in the news last week
that cursive was coming back into schools. It's about time, IMO. My grandson (13) was
helping me bake cookies from an old handwritten recipe card, and said, "I can't read cursive.
What does this say?" With more time that day, I would have started his cursive lessons. ;-))

N.

[Mike Burke]

Post by Nancy2
Yes, Carol, teachers started correcting and grading papers based on substantive content
and essentially told students not to worry about grammar and punctuation because it was
the ideas they were trying to express that were most important.
As I recall, these changes came along with the "new math." (I read in the news last week
that cursive was coming back into schools. It's about time, IMO. My grandson (13) was
helping me bake cookies from an old handwritten recipe card, and said, "I
can't read cursive.
What does this say?" With more time that day, I would have started his
cursive lessons. ;-))
N.

My son and DIL returned to Australia after 10 years in London when their
daughter was about 9 years old. At that stage she had the most beautiful
cursive hand-writing which she was immediately forbidden to use in her new
school here in Canberra, because 'we don't teach that yet'. Watching young
adults struggling to write anything half-legible, I suspect they never
teach it. They teach 'gender fluidity' though.

[Carol Dickinson]

As I recall, these changes came along with the "new math." (I read in the news last week

Post by Nancy2
that cursive was coming back into schools. It's about time, IMO. My grandson (13) was
helping me bake cookies from an old handwritten recipe card, and said, "I can't read cursive.
What does this say?" With more time that day, I would have started his cursive lessons. ;-))
N.

OMG! I'm glad cursive is "coming back" somewhere. They just started eliminating that here. I can't believe it. I spend lots of my recreational time doing genealogy. I don't have any lines that don't go back over 100 years most several centuries. How will people do this sort of thing, looking at original church records etc with no cursive. You not only need cursive, you usually need some latin, or a minimum some understanding that even English had no standard spellings until about a century ago. Its like saying you don't need to read anymore because they have software that can read for you and let you hear it.

I was also watching an interview on TV in the last couple of weeks about the job problem in the US. And this fellow pointed out that we have lots of jobs, just no people with skills, because not everyone is suitable for college and we've dropped "Shop" from the high schools. That I didn't know, as they were still there when my son's generation was in school. We had some wonderful technical skills classes here then. We even have a separate school set aside for that. But apparently what they learn is "gardening", a real skill for a career for Alaskans. The car repair mechanics class seems to be gone and that actually takes a LOT of training these days, not like in my grandfathers day.

And the University still has its surveying class, but I'm told by the surveyors in my family that the students come out learning to use a computer but NOT how to actually survey or do any drawing that don't involve a computer. My brother used to say that nobody in his company knew how to do certain things and he kept saying to them, how will you do this after I'm gone. You need to KNOW this. And now he's gone. Both my brother and my spouse say that the only good surveyors they can find all come from Michigan Tech.

I also worry about just plain food preparation. The local grocery store sells almost all the food pre-prepared because nobody cooks anymore. I can't buy basic meat to use in a recipe because its all pre spiced and sauced and soaked in things diabetics must avoid. What will happen if we have some sort of food emergency and we can't go to the store and buy meatballs already made, steak slathered with sauces, pork or chicken slathered with spices.

There are certain basic survival skills we cannot fail to pass on to our children, reading cursive just has to remain one of them. Otherwise how will they be able to learn to cook, repair cars etc.

[Nyssa]

Post by Nancy2
As I recall, these changes came along with the "new
math." (I read in the news last week

Post by Nancy2
that cursive was coming back into schools. It's about
time, IMO. My grandson (13) was helping me bake cookies
from an old handwritten recipe card, and said, "I can't
read cursive.
What does this say?" With more time that day, I would
have started his cursive lessons. ;-))
N.

OMG! I'm glad cursive is "coming back" somewhere. They
just started eliminating that here. I can't believe it. I
spend lots of my recreational time doing genealogy. I
don't have any lines that don't go back over 100 years
most several centuries. How will people do this sort of
thing, looking at original church records etc with no
cursive. You not only need cursive, you usually need some
latin, or a minimum some understanding that even English
had no standard spellings until about a century ago. Its
like saying you don't need to read anymore because they
have software that can read for you and let you hear it.
I was also watching an interview on TV in the last couple
of weeks about the job problem in the US. And this fellow
pointed out that we have lots of jobs, just no people with
skills, because not everyone is suitable for college and
we've dropped "Shop" from the high schools. That I didn't
know, as they were still there when my son's generation
was in school. We had some wonderful technical skills
classes here then. We even have a separate school set
aside for that. But apparently what they learn is
"gardening", a real skill for a career for Alaskans. The
car repair mechanics class seems to be gone and that
actually takes a LOT of training these days, not like in
my grandfathers day.
And the University still has its surveying class, but I'm
told by the surveyors in my family that the students come
out learning to use a computer but NOT how to actually
survey or do any drawing that don't involve a computer. My
brother used to say that nobody in his company knew how to
do certain things and he kept saying to them, how will you
do this after I'm gone. You need to KNOW this. And now
he's gone. Both my brother and my spouse say that the only
good surveyors they can find all come from Michigan Tech.
I also worry about just plain food preparation. The local
grocery store sells almost all the food pre-prepared
because nobody cooks anymore. I can't buy basic meat to
use in a recipe because its all pre spiced and sauced and
soaked in things diabetics must avoid. What will happen if
we have some sort of food emergency and we can't go to the
store and buy meatballs already made, steak slathered with
sauces, pork or chicken slathered with spices.
There are certain basic survival skills we cannot fail to
pass on to our children, reading cursive just has to
remain one of them. Otherwise how will they be able to
learn to cook, repair cars etc.

I agree!

I recently hemmed a bridesmaid's dress for my neighbor's
granddaughter. It was lined taffeta, so twice the work
since both the lining and outer skirt needed to be both
cut and hemmed.

My neighbor knows how to do the job, but arthritis has
made it impossible for her, so I got the job. I told
her that I would have felt better about doing it if
the granddaughter had wanted to *learn* how to do the
job so that she could handle that type of job herself
in the future.

Of course, the granddaughter is too busy for that what
with grad school, two part time jobs, and a social life.

It's all about priorities. As long as they have friends.
relatives, and/or neighbors to do it for them, they don't
have "time" to learn for themselves.

I don't know why I should be surprised. The girl's
*mother* can't do the alterations either. It's not that
she wasn't taught how by her mom, it's because she too
doesn't have the *time*. That and she probably would have
ruined the dress if she had tried.

So I end up being the seamstress for the family...so
far a replaced zipper, a repair to a hooded jacket, and
now the dress hemming.

Yet none of these skills are valued or taught just like
cooking, cabinet making, auto repair, and so on. Until
someone needs something fixed.

Nyssa, who would be more than happy to teach someone to
cook or do sewing repairs but no one wants to bother to
learn

[Carol Dickinson]

Post by Nyssa
Yet none of these skills are valued or taught just like
cooking, cabinet making, auto repair, and so on. Until
someone needs something fixed.
Nyssa, who would be more than happy to teach someone to
cook or do sewing repairs but no one wants to bother to
learn

I am not shy about telling people about local businesses that
do that sort of thing. Assuming there are any. I waited too
long to get my dining table refinished. I cannot do it due to
arthritis, and the business I intended to take it to as closed,
probably because the old geezer died.

BUT 30 years ago I remember a neighbor telling me how SHE couldn't
help with cub scouts because "I'm not good with boys" and besides
SHE had a job (so obviously I had a LOT more time). Well SHE had WELL
BEHAVED twin boys in my troop and in my son's class. I too had a job,
unpaid,being caregiver for a husband with a brain tumor and a mentally
ill son. Between the 2 of them we had at least 4 Drs appointments a week,
and I spent hours each week with paperwork, insurance claims etc, which together took more than her 40 hours work week. Oh and she had a maid.
and still I managed to find 2 hours for scouts and I always could
find time to bake 2 dozen cupcakes or whatever. I didn't have time
for the hairdresser like SHE did etc. When we got to 9th grade though
I opted out except for supporting my son's special ed school and his
principal. If the principal asked me to do something, the answer was
always yes, because there were 200 kids in that school and FIVE parents
who would participate in anything.

Carol

Your "friend" needs to be introduced to the local tailor shop or dry cleaners.

[Nyssa]

Post by Carol Dickinson

Post by Nyssa
Yet none of these skills are valued or taught just like
cooking, cabinet making, auto repair, and so on. Until
someone needs something fixed.
Nyssa, who would be more than happy to teach someone to
cook or do sewing repairs but no one wants to bother to
learn

I am not shy about telling people about local businesses
that do that sort of thing. Assuming there are any. I
waited too long to get my dining table refinished. I
cannot do it due to arthritis, and the business I intended
to take it to as closed, probably because the old geezer
died.
BUT 30 years ago I remember a neighbor telling me how SHE
couldn't help with cub scouts because "I'm not good with
boys" and besides SHE had a job (so obviously I had a LOT
more time). Well SHE had WELL BEHAVED twin boys in my
troop and in my son's class. I too had a job, unpaid,being
caregiver for a husband with a brain tumor and a mentally
ill son. Between the 2 of them we had at least 4 Drs
appointments a week, and I spent hours each week with
paperwork, insurance claims etc, which together took more
than her 40 hours work week. Oh and she had a maid. and
still I managed to find 2 hours for scouts and I always
could find time to bake 2 dozen cupcakes or whatever. I
didn't have time for the hairdresser like SHE did etc.
When we got to 9th grade though I opted out except for
supporting my son's special ed school and his principal.
If the principal asked me to do something, the answer was
always yes, because there were 200 kids in that school and
FIVE parents who would participate in anything.
Carol
Your "friend" needs to be introduced to the local tailor
shop or dry cleaners.

There's not much around here since we're pretty rural. The
one custom sewing shop I remember seeing in a nearby city
is gone. I doubt the few dry cleaners also do alterations.

They were joking with me when I finished the hemming job
that the other bridesmaids would all rush to me to have
their dresses hemmed too once they found out the one was
done. I said no way, and luckily they didn't pass along
my contact information so I'd be inundated with (ugly)
bridesmaids dresses. <whew!>

OB Mystery: Finished two more in the Knitting Mystery
series and am now about a quarter of the way through
"House of Cards." I'm enjoying it so far, especially
the cynical political "quotes" from the main character
that preface each chapter.

Nyssa, who hopes that the weather will allow her to get
some outside work done today